Bunky's Prayer
The ClubHouse: Big Brother Archives: Bunky's Prayer
| Fruitbat | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:58 pm 
I agree Seamonkey. I am not Christian. I was not raised with any organized religion. Nor am I an atheist. It is inappropriate to require others at a community table to participate in your religion. Bowing his head and silently saying his own grace would have been the way to go.
>>>>>>>>>>>I would have been proud of them if they said "I am not comfortable with prayer. It is not part of my culture (or whatever), if you don't mind I will sit here but will not participate or I will step into the other room until you are done."<<<<<<<<<<<
This is absurd and awkward. It is not *my* responsibility to walk away from *my* table. This is not Bunky's house. It is shared by all.
What made this all worse and more uncomfortable than it could have been, is Bunky's long and very emotional display.
Our culture is permeated with the Christian belief system. It is hard to ignore though I try and I'm not offended when I encounter it's messages daily. I just remove my focus. In my home at my dinner table I expect to be free from it's oppression. |
| Teddybear | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:05 pm
No matter who believes what, to bow your head in silence out of respect for someone else's beliefs is not a big thing to ask. If you want people to respect your beliefs, then respect theirs as well. They could have just ignored him, they didnt have to laugh. |
| Franny | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 01:08 pm
Did I miss something or were those people tied to those chairs. No one forced anything on anyone. By sitting there and taking the hands of the people next to you then you CHOSE to participate.
Obviously Monica (who was the only one to chastise these (in my opinion)uncivilized people ) was raised right. And by the way she was talking to all of them including Krista.
(mod99) |
| Seamonkey | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 03:15 pm
Yes.. to those who mentioned it.. Krista was indeed amused at Bunky's delivery as well..
As I recall, Nic had worked hard to convince the whole group to eat together, feelings were a bit fragile.. I really don't think Bunky was in tune
with what would be appropriate. Again, as I said and Bat said.. it wasn't Bunky's house or table and it was imposing. This isn't a matter of right or wrong to me..
I will say that all of them have done and said far ruder things to each other or about each other.
No they weren't tied to the chairs but breaking away would have been more insulting. I don't think any of them set out to giggle or smile.. it was only after Bunky went on and on and on and got all emotional.. it wasn't the act of the prayer but being trapped in what because a bit embarrassing. |
| Studioblue | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 04:01 pm
I don't feel oppressed by someone else's prayers,
I am sorry if some folks do-if you watch the tape you will see that Bunky ASKED first before he said his prayer, and they agreed to it.
I think that it's necessary to respect each other's religious beliefs,or else we could actually have WARS or something!(Ireland,the Middle East,Bosnia..etc. )This is why intelligent people educate their children away from ridiculing another person's religion. Franny and many others in this thread, came from homes where respect for others was drilled into them.I am sure that Franny has little trouble with folks in her day-to-day dealings with them, that's the payoff to good manners, life is easier for everyone.
As for Krista snickering, I think that,at the time she was getting cozy with CT.She was no better than anyone else if she did it. |
| Seamonkey | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 04:57 pm
I'm done with this thread. I have few troubles day to day in dealing with people. I certainly learned respect for others.
Yes, Bunky asked.. but you know.. some questions aren't really questions.. like for years "do you mind if I smoke?" definitely didn't mean what it said and anyone who said they minded was considered rude back in the day when smokers ruled."
We can speculate for weeks but we will never know what the reaction would have been if someone had said no.. or left the table.
I have respect for "Franny and may others in this thread" and I wish that I felt that respect for my opinions in return.
<end> |
| Studioblue | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 05:01 pm
I respect you,Seamonkey. |
| Franny | Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 05:53 pm
I'm sorry you feel that way Seamonkey, maybe you misunderstood my point because I do respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it as you don't agree with mine. It's ok to agree to disagree. Studioblue is correct, I came from a very strict background where people were to be respected for whatever their beliefs were as long as they didn't hurt you. I believe in freedom of religion even though I am agnostic. I believe in a supreme being but not a specific one. I just feel it is far more humane to say "I would prefer we be thankful for our meal and say so rather than make it a prayer, which may offend some of us". Freedom of speech is also a right in this country and what excuse would any of the HGs have to oust someone for being honest..Isn't that what everyone has wanted them to be? I don't think many young people today understand tolerance or sensitivity, they look at it as weakness, while many of us look at it as human kindness. Yes they all lie and plot strategy in the gist of this GAME, but I don't believe the snickering was part of the game. |
| Studioblue | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 03:52 am
When the late Carroll O'Connor admitted that he hoped that he did intimidate the drug dealer that
sold drugs to his kids I cheered him on, for his honesty and his firm stance, that was a TV moment that made me feel good.
When Mike and Co snickered during B's prayer I was embarassed for Mike and his family-that was a TV moment that made me feel disgusted.
The issue of Christian oppression made me pause,
mainly because it's a weak argument,the table belonged to Bunky as much as it belonged to Mike.
Mike had a right to snicker.
Bunky had a right to pray.
I have a right to defend the actions of one and to call down the actions of another.
Since so many wars seem to start over religion the
episode stuck in my mind-because I think that is how wars start-JMO.
I always find the posters who take an opposing position interesting-though sometimes their position
lacks validity IMHO however, I don't stomp off in a huff because another poster said something that
I didn't like-that's not my style.
I want to thank everyone who commented on this thread, I hope that Kent reads it and responds. |
| Fruitbat | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 04:05 am
Mike, Shannons and Krista's giggling was a reflection of themselves and nothing else. This had nothing to do with religion. They were reacting to Bunky's emotional display. Childish and disrespectful, sure, but in the scope of things not that big a deal. Bunky never even mentioned it nor did he react.
Two different topics were actually being discussed in this thread. Giggling and the act of saying grace.
I like a thread where we can where we can debate, even get heated, not call each other names and walk away agreeing to disagee. Thats nice. Thanks all. |
| Hypermom | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 06:08 am
Fruitbat, I respect and admire nearly all your posts, but how sad for you to "remove your focus" from all things Christian. You are really cheating yourself. I say this with respect for you, I hope you take it in the right way.
I know you said you are not an athiest, but something I heard once, still applies here: Those who turn their back on Christianity have nothing to live for (hope of eternal life) and everything to lose. Christians have everything to live for and nothing to lose.
There is good reason why our culture is "permeated with the Christian belief system." Someone died so that would happen. Surely anyone could respect that sort of life and death. |
| Fruitbat | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 09:18 am
Hypermom...I have my own beliefs and they include God. I am, in no way, cheating myself. I consider myself one who is guided everyday by my convictions. I have very strong spiritual underpinnings.
Would you say Jews, Hindu's, Muslims, Budhists, etc, are cheating themselves because they do not follow the christian faith?
Why would you assume I don't have everything to live for?
There is room for everyone to follow their own sensibilites in this arena. The world abounds with different faiths. It is how you live your life that matters, not the specifics that guide you.
I have taken no offense with your post. |
| Max | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 09:20 am
Please let's not turn into an evangelism thread. 
I have my beliefs, others have theirs. None of them have to agree 100%.
As long as we agree to respect each other, all is good.
I am a Christian, though not an evangelical or fundamentalist. To me, many belief systems, whether classified by the individual as religion or not, boil down to a form of this passage (one of many with similar content):
"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." - 1John 4:6-8
To me, the giggling during the prayer is of no importance, really. Prayers for me are a personal thing and I would never expect everyone else to feel the way I do about them. Mike and the others apologized after they giggled. I think they really thought Bunky was making a joke at first. Actually, when I heard the beginning, I thought so, too. (ANd I think God probably enjoys a good joke now and then.)
Anyway, wouldn't the "Christian" or "religious" thing to do for both sides be (1) apologize for any transgression, real or perceived, and (2) accept the apology? Seems to me that both sides did this in the house. It's only here that the debate continues on.
 |
| Seamonkey | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 09:40 am
Hmm.. I didn't mean to indicate that I was stomping off because someone didn't agree with me.. I just felt that for me the thread had run its course. I don't feel cheated or unfortunate in any way. I was raised a christian and I now have wider beliefs.
This whole thing started with a question to Kent asking if those in the house were upset about that incident and veered off into manners and respect (respect was actually mentioned in the original post).
I stand by my statement that respect runs in all directions and that what might be seen as a joyful sharing by one person, might feel like a putdown or imposition to another. I have no problem saying grace with friends, or saying a brief Buddhist prayer if I'm at Obon festival, or taking a moment of silence with others.
I agree that people have lots of rights.. to pray, to giggle, whatever. Sometimes the "right" thing to do is to pass on your right, not giving up your right, just choosing not to exercise it at a moment. |
| Franny | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 09:42 am
My understanding of this thread was that it dealt with GOOD MANNERS, and proper behavior, not religious beliefs. No one has to sit and listen to sermons. This was a prayer asking for thanks. All of us should be thanking something or someone that we have food, shelter, etc. It doesn't have to be any one entitiy we thank. In this case maybe some of you are right it wasn't the prayer they were laughing at but laughing at Bunky instead. If this is true than it sure makes me feel better knowing they would laugh at a man who is sincere in giving thanks for his good-fortune than the prayer itself..NOT.. Laughing at others is not (IMO) redeeming.
I have been to many countries where Christianity is not the religion and have made sure I always go to a temple or any place of worship and to be blessed by whoever, so when it's my time (since no one has ever proved to me who is and who isn't the real God) my back is covered.lol |
| Tcrystalclear | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 09:43 am
Excellent post, Max. |
| Franny | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 09:45 am
oops, forgot I wanted to say this:
We will all go to a better place after we leave this earth if we just remember the Golden Rule:
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU
This not from any religion, it is a way to live life and keep friends by treating others respectfully and therefore respect will come back to you tenfold. |
| Hypermom | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 11:20 am
Thanks Fruitbat. Everyone seems to say what they feel here, as do I. And I am going to politely ignore the people who are trying to steer us back on track!
I simply (simply is the key word) believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I start there. There is an old testament that was mainly Jewish laws and ways of life. There are excellent stories, examples, prophesies, psalms, prayers, etc. in it. But, when Christ died the new testament or the "new law" went into effect. The sacrifice and the new law was for every human. So, yes I do believe the plan of salvation laid out in the New Testament is the plan for every person. We as humans have struck out and divided into a zillion religions and I personally do not believe that was God's intention. Again, I think he meant for us to keep it simple.
That's all I'll say. If I'm given grief I'll accept that, but expressing my opinion on this matter is no different, however more controversial, than any other in any thread. It may be way off the subject of Big Brother, but I'll go back and blame it on Studio Blue! Or maybe even further and blame it on CT in the first place for laughing during prayer! |
| Studioblue | Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 03:12 pm
It may be way off the subject of Big Brother, but I'll go back and blame it on Studio Blue! Or maybe even further and blame it on CT in the first place for laughing during prayer!
=====
LOL!!!
Okay...that's fine..blame the messenger! |
| Hypermom | Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 05:44 am
I think we can end this now! Peace to the posters! |
| Babyruth | Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 06:59 am
Ok, well, this thread has died and you all have moved on, but I just got here and wanna post my 2 cents since I didn't see anyone else post it here.
No need to respond to this, either.
This is about the original question regarding respect and manners.
This is my view of it all:
That evening, tension was VERY thick in the house. Anger and frustration were simmering at the surface. Nicole asked people to try to have a peaceful meal. Bunky was trying to be a peacemaker by asking if they all wanted to have a pre-meal prayer. That's our Bunky--a peacemaker. He gets uncomfortable and emotional around discord and conflict. A pre-meal prayer might distract people from the tension, and focus on something positive.
Nobody objected--they all held hands and most bowed their heads and were quiet. Then Bunky started to speak, and because he was feeling emotional and his voice wavered and sounded a bit funny in the stark silence before it settled in, some CT people started giggling.
I don't think they meant to be disrespectful, but it ended up looking that way. The CT folks are immature anyway, so it did not surprise me that they giggled. Krista started and tried to stop, then Mike (who was sitting quietly with his head bowed) looked up, saw her giggling, and it made him laugh. Shannon and Will started laughing, too. I did not think they giggled on purpose to show disrespect to Bunky or religion or anything else. I think they were giggling out of tension and reacting to a sort of funny sounding voice.
It makes sense to me that Monica and others immediately took offense and saw it as intentionally disrespectful of CT, because CT's attitude towards everyone else had been very disrespectful all the time. It seemed just another selfish thing they did.
OK, that was my view of the whole scene.
We will now return to your regularly scheduled programming. |
| Studioblue | Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 07:29 am
BabyRuth...your explanation makes sense to me.
Thanks for your coolheaded response.
NOW...we can close the thread! |
| Seamonkey | Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 08:30 am
I tried to bring up the theme that babyruth has so nicely stated.. way back in this thread.. that
there was high tension.. that is was amazing that all were around the table and that it was just a very awkward situation when Bunky got all quavery and went on at length. |
| Moderator | Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 08:50 am
Seems the agreement is in. This thread has run it's course. Closing it now. Thanks.
(c) |
|
|
